former jw timothy kline wrote an excellent article in 2002 that examines from a scriptural perspective the watchtower society's "two witnesses" requirement applicable to child abuse allegations (called "part 1" but there appears to be no further parts).
the article shows there are certainly alternative interpretations available to the watchtower society that would allow them to easily adjust this flawed aspect of their policy while still adhering to scriptural principles.
16 but if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established.
To: yadda yadda 2
Sola, it is absolutely not technically going "beyond what is written" to use non-human 'witnesses'. Exodus 22:13 makes it clear that non-human evidence can count as a witness.
Good point. I guess the guy(s) who inserted the 2nd witness exceptions did their scriptural homework.
Thanks!
---
"Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter what it contradicts." - Charles T. Russell
Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence. pp. 8-9 July 1879
former jw timothy kline wrote an excellent article in 2002 that examines from a scriptural perspective the watchtower society's "two witnesses" requirement applicable to child abuse allegations (called "part 1" but there appears to be no further parts).
the article shows there are certainly alternative interpretations available to the watchtower society that would allow them to easily adjust this flawed aspect of their policy while still adhering to scriptural principles.
16 but if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established.
To: Big Mama
Love must be the deciding factor. "Nestoring" is unacceptable.
I agree; that is why the JW “two witness” policy has built in flexibility. I gave a real life example of this flexibility in action here (Post 18 by me): http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/180309/6/Anyone-heard-of-Watchtower-policy-change-concerning-pedophiles
In addition to using a separate witness to the same kind of sin, Elders can use a successful conviction as a second witness. Technically speaking, allowing a conviction as a second witness goes “beyond what is written” in the bible. But I believe God doesn’t mind.
former jw timothy kline wrote an excellent article in 2002 that examines from a scriptural perspective the watchtower society's "two witnesses" requirement applicable to child abuse allegations (called "part 1" but there appears to be no further parts).
the article shows there are certainly alternative interpretations available to the watchtower society that would allow them to easily adjust this flawed aspect of their policy while still adhering to scriptural principles.
16 but if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established.
To: jwfacts
What an excellent point. Matthew 18 does not apply to every situation and that the Watchtower does not apply it consistently.
Valid point; however, you should consider additional scriptures that Timothy Kline does not mention. JWs think the “two witness” principle should be applied in all matters involving congregational judgment. We have come to this conclusion by using Deuteronomy 19:15 and Matthew 18:15-17 in addition to the following scriptures:
1 Timothy 5:19 (The Message):
“Don't listen to a complaint against a leader that isn't backed up by two or three responsible witnesses.”
John 8:17 (Amplified Bible):
“In your [own] Law it is written that the testimony (evidence) of two persons is reliable and valid.”
2 Corinthians 13:1 (Amplified Bible):
“THIS IS the third time that I am coming to you. By the testimony of two or three witnesses must any charge and every accusing statement be sustained and confirmed.”
I discuss this issue in more detail in the following debates/discussions:
Debate with Mary:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/196933/2/The-two-witness-rule
Discussion with Big Tex:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/180309/2/Anyone-heard-of-Watchtower-policy-change-concerning-pedophiles
Debate with Barbara Anderson:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/180508/2/Its-WT-leaders-not-elders-who-are-responsible-for-all-the-harm-My-Geneva-Switz-lecture-posted-here-for-new-ones-Sola-Scriptura-to-read
Regards
---
'A simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it'
- Martin Luther
i have been "lurking" for about four years now.. it was an incredibly weird experience just to look at a site like jwn or freeminds.
he came off very loving.. so, i decided that i would talk to one of my elders about the things i read.
if any of you have time to read this, thank you.
To: toweragent
@Sola Scriptura: That's an interesting take on things that I'd never considered before...
Take care my brother; PM me if you ever want to talk about it.
Agape,
---
“Is it not an exaggeration to say that all of
us are in danger of being deceived with regard
to our religious beliefs?” -The Watchtower September 1, 2010 page 11
i have been "lurking" for about four years now.. it was an incredibly weird experience just to look at a site like jwn or freeminds.
he came off very loving.. so, i decided that i would talk to one of my elders about the things i read.
if any of you have time to read this, thank you.
To: sir82
Now ask yourself - which description best fits Jehovah's Witnesses:
-- An organization of truly humble people reaching out to help their fellow men in any way they can; non-ambitious, non-judgmental, non-gossiping, valuing mercy over punishment, valuing conscience over law; where the God who is worshipped would never ask you to sacrifice the love of your family to please him or his organization....
That is an unfair question and comes close to being a false dichotomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma). No group of people, including the Israelites and the early Christians, even remotely fit that description. I don’t suggest JWs simple fit somewhere in the middle, but neither do they easily fit into one of the two polar opposite choices you present toweragent with.
Regards.
---
“I made an ass of myself.”
- J. F. Rutherford
i have been "lurking" for about four years now.. it was an incredibly weird experience just to look at a site like jwn or freeminds.
he came off very loving.. so, i decided that i would talk to one of my elders about the things i read.
if any of you have time to read this, thank you.
To: toweragent
“Things I Could Never Believe - Trinity, Hellfire, and the condition of the dead. Those things are surefire to me.”
Outside of the JWs and the Christadelphians, no other worldwide Christian religion that I can think of, rejects all three of these. This is why I feel many, but not all, former JWs who still believe in the Bible find it hard to accept other Christian religions who teach the Trinity, Hellfire or the immortality of the soul. It is the rejection of these Big 3 teachings that fueled Russels early success, before he got distracted with that entire pyramid measuring nonsense.
I whole heartedly believe many, but not all, JWs show love among themselves sufficiently enough to be at least classified as Jesus disciples. (I address this subject more in detail here in my 2nd post from 5 years ago: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/128108/2/Do-JWe28099s-qualify-as-Christ-disciples-based-on-John-13-34-35)
I approach the JW religion as way of life that currently fulfills my spiritual needs and allows me to love and be loved by imperfect people of all races. If that ever changes, just like Ray Franz, I won’t be afraid to satisfying that need elsewhere. I use the following scripture as one of my guiding principles:
“Don't suppress the Spirit, and don't stifle those who have a word from the Master. On the other hand, don't be gullible. Check out everything, and keep only what's good. Throw out anything tainted with evil.” - 1 Thessalonians 5:19-22 (The Message)
So I check everything out, and continue to believe what is good, then I privately reject anything that conflicts with my bible trained conscience, knowing full well that neither I or anyone else on this planet has the complete truth on all things.
I pray you find enough of the important answers you are looking for to give you peace of mind.
Agape my brother,
---
"Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter what it contradicts." - Charles T. Russell
Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence. pp. 8-9 July 1879
i know certain apologists might rub us the wrong way, but let's not treat them like their pieces of sh*t.. and i know certain posters might rub us the wrong way, but let's not be so quick to beat everybody down that's not of our same reasoning.. just saying..
To: minimus
"I know certain apologists might rub us the wrong way… but let's not be so quick to beat everybody down that's not of our same reasoning."
Thanks for taking up for us JW Apologists! I believe many lurk, but few post.
---
”We would not refuse to treat one as a brother because he did not believe the Society is the Lord's channel.
If others see it in a different way, that is their privilege. There should be full liberty of conscience.”
WT April 1, 1920, p. 100, 101
i don't think there are more pedophiles in the religion than there are in others.. i understand that one is too many.
but i think some believe that it's an epidemic within the organization.
i believe their 2 witness rule can help pedophiles secretly abuse kids.. but i don't think that this particular crime dominates those in the religion.. .
To diamondiiz:
you said...
This thread exists because there is so many victims of wts, and there are pedophiles that are allowed in. The fact that so many here known of a pedophile within their old congregation or someone that was molested by a witness tells you that this problem is greater than that of a general population.
***Disclaimer: The following statements by me is only to make a counterpoint to your theory. I don't believe in any "acceptable tolerance" of Child Abuse. 1 victim is toooo many.***
Although I can't disprove it, I personally don't believe your statement: "this problem is greater than that of a general population."
Here's why:
Dr. Gene Abel estimates that between 1% and 5% of our population molest children - CNN Specials Transcript #454-Thieves of Childhood. http://www.yellodyno.com/html/child_molester_stats.html
If the above statistic is close to being true, to just equal the general population, JWs would need between 1-5 child abusers in EVERY congregation around the world (based on an 100 person avg. sized congregation). I've traveled to many congregations in my time and have talked candidly with many elders. In my experience, having >5% of the congregation be child abusers would be hard for me to believe. Again I can't disprove it, anything is possible, but I just can't fathom having >400,000 of my brothers being Child abusers. (8 million x 5% = 400,000).
P.S.
I found a great link for all parents to review & bookmark: 8 red flags for identifying child predators.http://www.yellodyno.com/Yello_Dyno_Eight_Red_Flags.html
---
Sola Scriptura
"Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter what it contradicts." - Charles T. Russell
Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence. pp. 8-9 July 1879
i don't think there are more pedophiles in the religion than there are in others.. i understand that one is too many.
but i think some believe that it's an epidemic within the organization.
i believe their 2 witness rule can help pedophiles secretly abuse kids.. but i don't think that this particular crime dominates those in the religion.. .
To Balaamsass:
you said...
"If the house is on fire we call 911 for the fire Department, not the Elders. Why call the Elders when a child is raped?"
it's been very quiet concerning him.
anyone have an update, information on his where-abouts and current position?
he use to be the spoke-person for the society in the news media etc.
snowbird said:
Token Negro.
Trust me.
WT did the expedient, politically correct thing by bringing Brown & Herd on board.
Where did you get your FACTS from? Or is this just your Opinion?
Regardless of how people on this board feel about them, I believe these men EARNED their respective positions, (based on personal knowledge I have of them and the people that know them). They are highly respected by many JWs of all colors. (Especially J.R. Brown).
Snowbird, if this is simply your opinion, no need to respond (everyone is entitled to their opinion). But, if you have FACTS to back your statement I respectfully ask you to present them.
Sincerely,
Sola Scriptura
---
‘Is it not an exaggeration to say that all of
us are in danger of being deceived with regard
to our religious beliefs?’
-THE WATCHTOWER SEPTEMBER 1, 2010 page 11
